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Statement No.: WITNO208_01
Exhibits: None
Dated: 18 January 2022
THE POST OFFICE HORIZON IT INQUIRY
FIRST WITNESS STATEMENT O}
WILL SAY as follows:
INTRODUCTION
1. I am grateful to the Chair to be invited to provide a “human impact” statement,
concerning the physical, psychological, emotional, reputational and financial
consequences to me and my family of being held responsible for shortfalls shown by
the Horizon IT system and Post Office Limited’s actions toward me and my family.
The initial paragraphs below provide a brief summary of my background, and provide
context to the detail of the human impact of the Horizon scandal on me and my
family. This statement does not reflect a full account of my experiences or those of
my family and if necessary or required I will provide further witness statement
evidence.
BACKGROUND
2. I am now 67 years of age. I was married t i
accounts.
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aid to me that he thought that I needed a challenge in life and that, given my
experience, he thought running a post office would suit me.
5. After being so active for many years, I found retirement to be somewhat stale. I
thought I GR'
and to be part of the community again.
'O suggestion was a good one. I wanted to work, and run a business,
GRO} and I looked into the process of being a subpostmaster. I found premises and I
applied to the Post Office to be a subpostmistress. I was interviewed at length and
was accepted.
rs I was a subpostmistress at New Boston Post Office in Haydock, St Helens, from
1 June 2011 to 10 June 2016. I operated a retail business from the premises. I ran a
general store at the branch; from 2013 I also developed and ran a bakery.
8. I upgraded from a sub post office to a main post office in 2012, which is when I
started to experience shortfalls.
Training and Support
49: I remember attending 5 days of classroom training with Post Office in Chester. The
training centre was set up like a working post office, with paper money and access to
the Horizon System. I don’t remember much of the specifics on what was covered
during the training, but I believe the basics such as daily balances were covered.
10. At the time, I felt the training was adequate and that I had a good handle on the
basics of the Horizon System, but the training did not cover every eventuality. I also
remember receiving 5 days of onsite training at the branch on the first week I took
up the position.
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At the time, I do not remember experiencing too many specific problems with
Horizon and the trainer seemed content with how I was running the branch and
undertaking the daily balances. One of my employees, John, was an ex-
subpostmaster who had sold his business and was very experienced. When I took
over, I also employed Denise, who had worked with John for many years. She helped
me with balancing and rolling over at the end of each month and with the more
technical aspects of Horizon. As such, I felt I had a good amount of support from my
experienced staff at the start.
It was not until 2012 when the branch was upgraded to a main post office that we
started to experience any significant discrepancies on the Horizon System.
1 received one further day of training when the branch was upgraded, and we were
given additional products and services including road tax and more currency being
added to our stock. We already had a lottery facility at the time of the upgrades.
When the discrepancies started to appear in 2012, I was confused as they made no
sense, and I was convinced from the beginning that they must be occurring because
of a fault with the Horizon System.
Until we became a Main Post Office, we had barely had any discrepancies at all. By
this I mean that we did not even have one postage stamp that was not accounted
we were very thorough in our accounting and bookkeeping.
However, after we became a Main Post Office, discrepancies began to appear for
which we could not account. We would stay up late at night, to check every entry
and the stock and to check the paperwork of our staff. However, it was all in order.
As such, it became clear to both of us, that there must a fault or faults in the Horizon
System.
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Helpline
17, I called the helpline on a regular basis and specifically every time there was a
significant discrepancy recorded, or when I couldn’t balance the daily takings.
18. The advice I was given by the Helpline was to leave the shortfall on the system until
the end of the month and roll it over. i was told to settle any shortfall centrally so
they could be acknowledged and dealt with. I was told by the Helpline that shortfalls
would be sorted out centrally. I trusted the advice I was given by the helpline, and I
assumed that they were on my side. I was wrong; the Helpline was wrongly named,
as it provided no help whatsoever
19. I remember having several meetings with Glen Cheshire, who was Post Office’s
Regional Manager. Previously, he had told me that he thought I was doing a very
good job of running my post office and developing the business.
20. In fact, later when the problems with Horizon got very bad, Glen Cheshire told me in
the post office that he did not believe that the problem lay with me or Peter.
21. When the system did not balance, I telephoned the helpline, they told me to simply
roll the balance over to the next month. This meant that the problem was not
addressed but only allowed to get worse. Glen Cheshire, the Regional Manager,
called me to discuss the increasing deficit. I made it clear to him that we were taking
every possible measure.
Shortfalls
22. In this section, I set out in brief detail my experiences of shortfalls arising from
deficiencies in the Horizon IT System, and Post Office Limited’s actions as a result.
This is only a brief introduction to those matters, in order to provide necessary
context for the explanation of the human impact which follows.
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23; 1am only able to give approximate figures, although I do have a clear recollection of
payments having been made by me. The Post Office should have full records of the
payments made by me, or deductions taken by them.
j looked after the financial side of the business.
GRO_
Unfortunately, he passed away April 2015. He died of a massive heart attack.
24. My partner!
Although I cannot say with any certainty, I believe the stress caused by the shortfalls
contributed to his ill health.
25. Shortfall 1: It is clear from Post Office correspondence that I paid a sum of £5,748.71
in December 2015. It would have been my partner who processed the payment from
my personal credit card. I do not recollect making the payment. I paid the Post Office
in full for this alleged shortfall on 28 January 2016. The amount was never detailed in
the accounts. !t only appears in the central suspense account.
26. Shortfall 2: £2,623.58 on 25 February 2016. I settled this alleged shortfall centrally
with the Post Office. The amount was never detailed in the accounts. It only
appeared in the central suspense account.
27. Shortfall 3: £3,013.32 in March 2016. I paid the Post Office this alleged shortfall on
24 March 2016. The amount was never detailed in the accounts. It only appeared in
the central suspense accounts.
Audit and investigation
28. I can remember the audits taking place; however, I cannot recall specific dates. The
Post Office will have records of the audit dates and I can provide the following from
my recollection.
29. The Post Office conducted at least 9 audits at the Branch. I would categorise some of
these as informal visits, rather than full audits. I was never given an audit report
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after the event, nor access to any of the evidence that underpinned the audit
findings. I just had to accept the outcome.
Every time an audit took place, the auditors could not find a discrepancy in the
branch which correlated with the discrepancies on Horizon. However, the shortfalls
mentioned above were discovered during the audits and I was led to believe I had no
option but to make good the shortfalls from my own pocket.
I did not trust the auditors. The reason for this is that I had caught the auditors
making mistakes on at least two occasions. For example, one auditor told me that
our stamps were ‘out’ (i.e., were missing). I denied this and insisted that they
counted the stamps again. Once they were recounted, the auditor admitted that he
was wrong. This happened a second time in the same audit, when I insisted another
auditor redo his work, and he admitted that he had also made an error.
In approximately January 2016, the Post Office conducted another audit. I received a
letter dated 4 February 2016 in which the Post Office claimed that I owed a ‘central
debt’ of £31,494.56. I was shocked,
This sum fluctuated significantly in correspondence from the Post Office.
For example, I received a statement from The Post Office on 6 June 2016 which
stated that I owed the Post Office £37,081.40. A payment plan was put in place for
an initial deduction of £825 from my wages in February 2016, followed by 36 further
monthly deductions of £825 and a final deduction of £969.56.
' had no say in this and the Post Office deducted the money without my consent. At
no time was I provided with any evidence as to why this shortfall had occurred, and
why it was my responsibility. I was given none of the data or information upon which
this alleged shortfall was based.
1am unsure how much of this alleged debt was paid off before my contract was
terminated. I do not have the relevant records and my partner dealt with some of
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37.
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the finances of the branch, whilst I focused on running the floor on a day-to-day
basis. From the records I have available, it is unclear how much of this deficit was
as since passed away.
I specifically remember an audit team arriving on 11 April 2016 to complete a full
audit. The audit team were very rude and made me feel like a thief from the outset.
The auditors would not let me near where they were working. I told them that this
was ridiculous, as I could not know whether they were doing their job correctly. The
audit team were there for a whole day. At the end of the day, they took my keys
from me, put all the money in the safe and told me that I would not be allowed to
re-enter the premises. I was told that my regional manager, Glen Cheshire, would
call me.
On the same day, I received a call from Glen Cheshire. He told me that “things
couldn’t keep going on like this in my office”. I was suspended with immediate effect.
1 asked him to explain why. I told him that he had been in the post office regularly; I
had reported everything to the Post Office; I had been interviewed by him. He had
no answer. He suspended me without pay that day. Mr Cheshire told me that I
would receive a call from a man named Mike Shields.
The next day I received a call from Mr Shields. He asked me about the staff who
worked for me, and the hours they worked. He told me that I should expect to
receive calls from people who would be willing to take over the running of the
branch.
I received a further call from Glen Cheshire inviting me to an informal meeting in
Bolton on 29 April 2016. At that meeting, he brought a Post Office investigator who I
was told was going to investigate the discrepancies. The Post Office Investigator
asked me if any of my staff could have taken the money. I categorically said no and
confirmed that I had no suspicions of my staff.
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42. The Post Office Investigator said that there would be an investigation and that I
might be prosecuted. I never met or heard from the investigator again. I have seen
no evidence of any adequate investigation despite that I was assured, and believed,
an investigation was being conducted at the time.
43. I was suspended by the Post Office in relation to the alleged shortfalls on 12 April
2016 and the branch was closed from that date. The Post Office appointed a
temporary subpostmaster a few months later. I was not allowed back into the
branch after I was suspended.
44, My contract was terminated by the Post Office via a letter dated 10 June 2016. The
letter stated that, as my contract was terminated within 3 years of my start date, I
was required to pay back the set-up costs which were calculated at £20,226.90. The
Post Office gave me no notice that my contract was being terminated.
45. I had to walk away from the business. After my contract was terminated, I lost all my
post office customers, who had kept both the retail and bakery business alive. These
both had to close, and I never had the opportunity to sell the branch. I had to give up
the lease and a new subpostmaster was appointed.
Civil and Criminal Proceedings
46. Luckily, the Post Office did not pursue criminal or civil proceedings against me for the
recovery of the alleged shortfalls. However, at the time, I lived in constant fear of
prosecution or civil action because of what the Post Office Investigator had said to
me at the formal meeting in Bolton.
Losses
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I was led to believe by Post Office Ltd that I had no alternative but to pay the
shortfalls. I experienced shortfalls of approximately £48,467.01. However, I am
unable to determine how much of this sum I repaid, but it was substantial.
I was suspended for 3 months before my contract was terminated. During this time, I
would estimate that I would have earned £7,800 (based on a net salary of £2,600 per
month). Had I been given reasonable notice of 12 months; I would have received my
salary of £31,200. In the alternative, if I had 6 months’ notice I would have received
£15,600, this is based on a net salary of £2,600 per month.
If my tenure had not been terminated, I would still be running the branch. I really
enjoyed my job and would have liked to run the branch until my retirement, before
which I would have earned approximately £156,000. In fact, I believe I would have
continued past 65, as I would have like to have been able to continue to build the
business and to hand it over to my children and grandchildren.
I had invested heavily in the retail shop and had established a bakery to increase
sales. I was investing the profits from the retail store back into the business and was
not taking a salary at the time. However, I expected it to begin making money soon
because of my investment. After the termination of my position as subpostmistress, I
continued to run the retail side of the business for around 2 months. However, the
revenue fell so dramatically because of the loss of the post office that I was forced to
close it.
Following the termination of my appointment, I was unemployed for 12 months. This
was an extremely stressful time for me. I obtained part time employment in a pub
and earnt around £120 per week and had to claim housing benefit.
Locally, people were saying I had stolen from the Post Office. I believe this was one
of the reasons why customers stopped coming to the retail and bakery business after
my contract with the Post Office had been terminated.
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53, After my post office was closed, one of my former employees, ! GRO! got a job
around the corner in an off licence. When she was working there, a former customer
of mine came in and tol I that she had heard that I was in prison for theft
from the Post Office. On another occasion, my son was pulled aside by a friend who
told him that there was a rumour in our community that I was in prison for theft. My
son was angry and embarrassed, and said that I was at home, and had not been
convicted of anything.
54. My grandson was told, by other children at his primary school, words to the effect
that, “Your Nanny doesn’t have the post office anymore, she got sacked for stealing”.
He went home very upset and told his mother, who told me. It broke my heart to
learn that my grandson was being teased at school about what had happened to me.
55. This shows how widely this was being spoken in the community.
HUMAN IMPACT
56. It is impossible to give a true account of the impact all of this had on me and my
family. 1 loved being a subpostmistress, however, the Post Office took this from me.
57. Every Wednesday I would have to do the balance on the Horizon System, with the
final balance on Thursday to include the lottery. I came to dread Wednesdays, as I
knew that Horizon would not balance. My assistant Denise would wait for me, as she
knew that I was so worried. I would press the button on the system to accept the
balance and send it through to Post Office headquarters. I just dreaded pressing that
button, because I knew the system would report a shortfall. 1 would do it and look at
Denise and shake my head.
58. [used to love getting up in the morning for work, but the worry became constant and
wore me down.
59. The starkest example of the impact of the faults in Horizon, and Post Office’s
treatment of me, is that it drove me to attempt suicide.
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I had been a successful businesswoman for much of my life. I took on and built up the
post office and associated retail business and bakery. However, because of problems
with the Post Office’s Horizon System, everything was taken from me. I had to move
out of my house, as I could no longer afford the rent. I moved into a flat above a
garage. I could not see a way forward. My whole life had collapsed.
I decided that I could not take things anymore, and ! decided to take my life. I waited
for my son to leave. When he left, I prepared some tablets intending to overdose.
However, my son had forgotten something. He came back unexpectedly and saw the
pills on the coffee table in front of me with a tumbler of orange juice. He knew what I
was intending and scooped up the pills. He told me that it was not the answer.
Since this time, in 2016, my son sent his oldest son to live with me so that I would
never be alone. I was treated by my GP and prescribed antidepressants. My family
have been deeply affected by all this, as they were put through the worry of knowing
that I was so depressed that I had intended to take my life.
Another factor was the loss of trust and friendship with my staff.
GRO! and I used to
stay up late into the night checking the figures and paperwork and the activities of all
the staff.I GRO} and I would watch the CCTV for hours to see if one of the staff were
stealing.
\ had a very close relationship with my 7 staff, particularly those who worked with me
in the post office. I had complete trust in them as people. However, the Post Office
constantly suggested that my staff were stealing. The Post Office urged me to monitor
my staffs’ spending habits: had they bought a car, had they bought a house? Even
though I did not believe that my staff were stealing, they could sense that I was
monitoring what they did, and therefore our relationships were strained. This caused
my key post office staff to leave my employment early.
I feel terrible about the loss of friendship and trust of my staff. Post Office destroyed
these relationships.
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66. Prior to becoming a subpostmistress, I was a retired successful businesswoman. I had
a good home and a happy family. I took on the post office because I was simply too
young and active to sit at home. I wanted the challenge of running a business again
and building it up as something to pass on to my children and grandchildren.
67. The years between 2012 and now have been an unending period of increasing
poverty, sadness and stress.
68. 1 am now 67. I would have thought that at this time I would be passing on a successful
Post office and retail business to my children and grandchildren. It was my dream that
I would go part time but remain to help and support my family in a business in the
centre of the community. Instead, I was treated like a criminal. I lost everything, my
Post office, retail business and bakery. I also lost the trust and friendship of my former
staff. I have lost respect within the community.
69. 1 believe that the only reason that the Post Office and others did not sue me, was
because I have nothing left but my state pension.
CONCLUSION
70. Nothing will make up for the years I have lost, the money I have lost, the respect and
dignity that I have lost. However, what happened to me, and others was done by the
Post Office, a government organisation. It cannot be allowed to go unpunished.
71. 1 know that no amount of money can give me back those lost years and lost dignity.
However, the Post Office and government must be forced to do what can be done to
put myself and others back in the position we should have been in, to bring us back
from enforced poverty to a position where we can live again.
72. I was treated like a criminal. People in my community believe that I was a thief and
that I was put in prison. Those who did this to me and other subpostmasters must be
held to account. They must be made to feel like I felt every Wednesday before I
pressed the button on the Horizon System to accept the balance.
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Statement of Truth
I believe the content of this Statement to be true.
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